Legislature(1999 - 2000)

04/10/2000 03:20 PM Senate RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
               SB 252-RS 2477 STATE RIGHTS-OF-WAY                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD  noted the committee  has held one hearing  on SB
252 and that  a committee substitute (CS) has  been proposed which                                                              
is substantially shorter  than the original bill.   The CS deletes                                                              
the entire listing and allows the  Department of Natural Resources                                                              
(DNR) to add to  its list.  The most significant  change to the CS                                                              
is a  provision that  suspends, at the  request of a  municipality                                                              
with  platting authority,  the requirement  to  record parcels  of                                                              
land of less than 41 acres.  The  result of that provision will be                                                              
that  the 40  acre parcels  that many  municipalities disposed  of                                                              
will not  be recorded.   The CS does  not remove the  existence or                                                              
non-existence  of  RS  2477s.   It  also  suspends  the  recording                                                              
requirement  in  situations  where  a  municipality  has  platting                                                              
authority and alternative access  and has smaller parcels on which                                                              
it is difficult to locate an unsurveyed RS 2477.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE moved to change the  number "40" to "41" on line 6,                                                              
page 2  and to adopt  the CS (Version  1 GS2004\H) as  the working                                                              
document of the  committee.  There being no objection,  the motion                                                              
carried.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1909                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD proposed amending the title to read,                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     "An Act  relating to listing,  survey and mapping of  RS 2477                                                              
     rights-of-way,   maintaining  records   concerning  RS   2477                                                              
     rights- of-way,  and suspending the recording  requirement on                                                              
     parcels of  less than 41  acres until surveyed,  if requested                                                              
     by a municipality with platting authority."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR  moved the title  change as a conceptual  amendment                                                              
to allow the legal drafters to craft the appropriate language.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
There being no objection, CHAIRMAN  HALFORD announced a conceptual                                                              
title change was adopted.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD took teleconference testimony.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. BOB  LOEFFLER, Director  of the Division  of Mining,  Land and                                                              
Water, DNR,  made the  following comments.   DNR believes  that RS                                                              
2477s  on private  property  should  be  recorded so  that  future                                                              
purchasers  of that property  have notice  that an encumbrance  on                                                              
the  title exists.    DNR is  very  concerned,  however, with  the                                                              
provision in SB 252 requiring it  to record encumbrances in places                                                              
where none  exists.  The record  over the years shows  that people                                                              
do not want  an encumbrance recorded  on a title when in  fact the                                                              
RS 2477  does not pass  through their  property.  DNR  can support                                                              
the  requirement   to   record  within   a  municipality   if  the                                                              
municipality does not object, but  outside of municipalities there                                                              
are many  small lots, and given  DNR's current level of  data, DNR                                                              
is  not  exactly sure  where  the  trails  are.   Recording  those                                                              
parcels will be unfair to the private  property owners.  DNR hoped                                                              
the bill would not  require it to record parcels  of less than 160                                                              
or 40 acres unless it can verify  that the trail goes through that                                                              
parcel.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LOEFFLER  also  informed  committee  members  that  the  bill                                                              
contains a deadline  of one year for trails listed  in legislation                                                              
which is  over one year  old, therefore  the deadline  has already                                                              
passed.   In addition,  eliminating  the 12 trails  from the  bill                                                              
that do not meet the requirements  of a RS 2477 may lead people to                                                              
think they are  authorized to trespass.  He said  his main concern                                                              
is  the provision  that  requires  DNR to  record  trails when  it                                                              
cannot verify that those trails exist.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
In  response to  Mr. Loeffler's  concerns,  CHAIRMAN HALFORD  said                                                              
with regard  to the time lines, the  bill does not amend  the time                                                              
lines in existing  law; those time lines were not  followed by DNR                                                              
last year.   Regarding  DNR's main concern,  the long  term survey                                                              
costs,  those costs  could amount  to $100 million,  so the  short                                                              
term answer is  to accurately use GPS and other  location systems.                                                              
Use of those systems will prevent  parcels of any significant size                                                              
from being  recorded on  the wrong  pieces of  property.   He said                                                              
that  although questions  remain  about small  parcels outside  of                                                              
municipalities,  he does  not  know how  to  resolve that  without                                                              
losing the notification provisions  of the bill.  He repeated that                                                              
the bill  does not  create or  extinguish any  rights.   It merely                                                              
provides notice  to the public in  the best way possible  short of                                                              
spending $100 million.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOEFFLER stated that regarding  the use of GPS or other short-                                                              
cut technologies  to determine  where trails  are with  respect to                                                              
property boundaries, the more creative  DNR can be, the better off                                                              
everyone  will be.   He said  he agrees  on a philosophical  level                                                              
with what Chairman  Halford is saying but he believes  it is wrong                                                              
to  record   on  people's  property   until  DNR  knows   that  an                                                              
encumbrance exists.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  HALFORD remarked  that the  requirement to  record on  a                                                              
parcel  that is  not on the  trail will  force someone  to do  the                                                              
research  to prove otherwise.   At  least a  potential buyer  will                                                              
know that research needs to be done.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE asked if DNR supports the changes in the CS.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2219                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LOEFFLER replied  the only  provision that  DNR is  concerned                                                              
about  is the  one that  requires it  to record  on small  parcels                                                              
outside of municipalities.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said that requirement is in existing law.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOEFFLER said that is correct.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR asked  Mr. Loeffler if he supports  the specific CS                                                              
before the committee  which does not require DNR  to record on any                                                              
parcels smaller than 40 acres.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOEFFLER remarked  that the previous version  was neutral with                                                              
respect  to  whether   a  parcel  was  inside  or   outside  of  a                                                              
municipality.   DNR does not like  the provision that  requires it                                                              
to record parcels outside of a municipality  but the other changes                                                              
in the CS are of much less concern.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  HALFORD  said the  issue  is  the obligation  of  notice                                                              
versus the  potential of giving a  person a notice  of encumbrance                                                              
that will  require that  individual to  prove it  is on  the wrong                                                              
piece of  ground.  That action  might be damaging to  the person's                                                              
emotional well being  but he does not know what the  answer is. He                                                              
noted  the  issue deals  with  conflicting  values that  are  both                                                              
legitimate.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR TAYLOR  said the problem  would be resolved had  the State                                                              
had an  ongoing program  of surveying  RS 2477s  and fighting  for                                                              
them.  Now, none of this will be  resolved until DNR uses a little                                                              
common sense  in the way it manages  State lands, even  if it just                                                              
deals with one RS 2477 at a time.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted this is a  Senate bill.  He suggested,  "If                                                              
we took  out the provision  that said the  40 acres in  the title,                                                              
not  in the  bill,  but that  the  41 acre  line  only applies  to                                                              
municipalities with  platting authority, our bill  would still say                                                              
that it applies inside municipalities  with platting authority but                                                              
the Administration could make their  pitch to try to carry that to                                                              
the  unorganized   areas  or  the  smallest   communities  without                                                              
platting authority to  the other body.  I don't know  if there's a                                                              
-  it's not  an area  where  there's an  absolute  right or  wrong                                                              
because you are  dealing with people on both sides  that have very                                                              
legitimate concerns."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE said a case can be made either way.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he would not  object to backing away from at                                                              
least that part  of the title and letting the bill  go through the                                                              
process to  see what the  collective wisdom  of both houses  is on                                                              
that question.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATORS GREEN and MACKIE felt that  would be a reasoned approach.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-22, SIDE B                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MACKIE  asked Mr. Loeffler  his opinion of  the Chairman's                                                              
suggestion.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOEFFLER  said he would  appreciate that opportunity  and that                                                              
he  does understand  that there  are legitimate  concerns on  both                                                              
sides of the issue.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  MACKIE moved  to delete  the  words, "if  requested by  a                                                              
municipality with platting authority."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN asked for clarification.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN HALFORD explained that the  text of the bill would remain                                                              
the same but the title would be amended  to delete the phrase, "if                                                              
requested by a municipality with  platting authority" to allow the                                                              
House to debate that question and make that change.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN  HALFORD noted  without objection,  the conceptual  title                                                              
was amended.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR LINCOLN  asked Mr. Loeffler  if he feels that  language is                                                              
better.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOEFFLER said he does.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  TAYLOR  moved CSSB  252(RES)  to  the next  committee  of                                                              
referral  with   individual  recommendations.    There   being  no                                                              
objection, the motion carried.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
With no further business to come before the committee, CHAIRMAN                                                                 
HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 4:12 p.m.                                                                                      

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